Technical Crank timing mark

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Technical Crank timing mark

Mikeb3311

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Hi all,

I was replacing my timing belt and the crank ended up not being in time (don't worry it's a 1980 2.0 so its freewheeling) and to my frustration, I realized that the PO had some how managed to bend the crankshaft timing marker out of place. I have contacted a few junkyards requesting the part, however I cannot find this part anywhere on parts sellers like midwest bayless, Autoricambi, or Vicks. Does anyone know where I might be able to pick one up, or is there an alternate way to time the crank? I know this is like my 3rd post in a week but I appreciate the help!

Thanks

Michael
 
One way is to remove all spark plugs and depth measure the pistons until all for are the same depth down the bores from the spark plug seats or a dead level other plane on the cylinder head. TDC is now 90 degrees back anti-clockwise.

The other is to use the dial depth gauge to to find the top most position. This is not as accurate as at the top of the crank throw there is little change in height/depth for an angle change unlike at 90 degrees.

Once found you can bend your old TDC pointer back to the correct position.
 
One way is to remove all spark plugs and depth measure the pistons until all for are the same depth down the bores from the spark plug seats or a dead level other plane on the cylinder head. TDC is now 90 degrees back anti-clockwise.

The other is to use the dial depth gauge to to find the top most position. This is not as accurate as at the top of the crank throw there is little change in height/depth for an angle change unlike at 90 degrees.

Once found you can bend your old TDC pointer back to the correct position.
Thanks so much! Is there a specific tool you recommend I use for accuracy? I don't see anything inherantly wrong with it but I don't think the seats are big enough to fit a tape measure.

Michael
 
Dial gauges are general engineering workshop measurement tools.

There are videos on YouTube on using dial gauges to find TDC. Suggest you view several to get the basics and then work from there.

On front wheel drive Fiats then most have an inspection window on the transverse gearbox bell housing the 0-5-10 markings. On the 124 with a longitudinal gearbox I don't know if these exist and if they did then they will not be easily visible.
 
Dial gauges are general engineering workshop measurement tools.

There are videos on YouTube on using dial gauges to find TDC. Suggest you view several to get the basics and then work from there.

On front wheel drive Fiats then most have an inspection window on the transverse gearbox bell housing the 0-5-10 markings. On the 124 with a longitudinal gearbox I don't know if these exist and if they did then they will not be easily visible.
Going by the Lada versions I worked on in the past, I would say probably no inspection window on rear wheel drive models.:)
 
Dial gauges are general engineering workshop measurement tools.

There are videos on YouTube on using dial gauges to find TDC. Suggest you view several to get the basics and then work from there.

On front wheel drive Fiats then most have an inspection window on the transverse gearbox bell housing the 0-5-10 markings. On the 124 with a longitudinal gearbox I don't know if these exist and if they did then they will not be easily visible.
I’ll do my research. This has been very helpful! Thank you!
 
Going by the Lada versions I worked on in the past, I would say probably no inspection window on rear wheel drive models.:)
And even if there was I guess trying to view it could be a real problem. I've not seen an old 124 for many years and can't recall how much of the bell housing is visible before it get covered by the transmission tunnel/bulkhead. Worth checking though.
 
There should be a TDC reference mark on the flywheel but it's not visible with the transmission attached to the engine. And it doesn't line up with any fixed mark either.
On some cars (possibly only the 124 Saloon/Sedan fitted with the OHV engines?) fitted with the old 4 speed transmission, it was visible when the crank was in the bdc position with the dust cover/shield under the flywheel removed - the 4 speed trans. bellhousing was cut away diagonally at the bottom, allowing part of the flywheel and clutch cover to be seen. The 5 speed trans. covers the entire flywheel, so the mark is not visible.
Some say this mark is a balancing mark. Some say it's just there to ensure the flywheel is refitted correctly (it'll fit on in either of 2 ways), i.e. the mark should be at the top with pistons 1 & 4 at top dead centre. This mark takes the form of a drilled dimple (it may or may not be high-lighted in white paint) located between the clutch cover and the ring gear.

As regards finding TDC is marks/pointer have been moved - various ways
1) use a tdc timing tool e,g, https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/top-dead-centre-tdc-timing-tool.html

There are also versions that incorporate a graduated plunger or indeed, for better accuracy, a DTI (dial test indicator) as others have already suggested.
The problem is the plug holes on the TC engine are not vertical so... unless you want to fabricate a plug hole adaptor with an angled hole to hold the DTI or plunger vertically, such measuring devices may not work so well. (ymmv)

2) If you have a vernier or digital calipers, you should find (on the one's I've seen anyway) that as you expand the jaws to take a reading, there a tail that extends from the other end of the calipers - this is used for depth measurement of holes etc. I've used this to measure piston travel quite successfully. And it saves the cost of a DTI plus adaptor....

3) I've seen other Mechanics use a screwdriver to find TDC, worked for them.

But as s130 has pointed out, there can be inaccuracies when trying to establish TDC by measuring piston travel. One possible way to achieve better accuracy is to note the no. of degrees of crank rotation when the piston stops rising, then note the no. of degrees when the crank starts to descend and pick the midpoint as being TDC. s130 has also suggested a more accurate way would be by setting all pistons at the same height (you only have to compare no. 1 & 2 (3 & 4 will be at the same height, unless....), then turn the crank counter-clockwise by 90* (assuming you had started with no.1 piston at approx. TDC and had turned the crank clockwise to bring no.1 down to mid level in the cylinder.

My advice would be to not get too worked up about accuracy - 'near-enough will probably be good enough' (as we say over here). I remember often having to advance or retard the inlet or sometimes the exhaust cam sprocket by one, sometimes 2 teeth to get the engine to run smoothly (especially the Lancia Twin Cams) and nothing bad happened. On a standard production engine, running std. cams and std. compression ratio, you're unlikely to run into any problem. However, the golden rule is to always turn the engine over several times gently and slowly by hand after fitting a new belt or playing with valve timing before hitting the starter.

But, one word of caution to OP, as far as I was aware, ALL the Fiat twin cam engines are interference engines i.e. get the valve timing wrong by more than a tooth or 2 (as mentioned above) and pistons can collide with valves and cause major damage. I'd suggest OP ask the Mechanic he consulted to disclose where he found written info (hearsay doesn't count) that the 2 litre Fiat engine was non-interference. Or perhaps the 2 litre engine used in Fiats for the U.S. market uses such a low compression ratio compared to all other markets, that it was rendered non-interference? (I've only limited experience of the 2 litre engines).
 
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Excellent advice from @124BC1 . Especially agree about interference engine issue with it being inclined valves as well. This book,I don't know if this would be any extra help or not, but does mention after doing cambelt to turn engine over by hand several times, always a good precaution on valve timing :)?
However this manual I found, although it mentions the timing marks on the cambelt cover to crank pulley, it also mentions with the pulley off the visible TDC marks on crank gear/sprocket to engine block, so may be worth checking if they are there.
It also mentions electronic ignition being in the original distributor.
Note this book is a combination of the OHV and OHC engines. So check for relevance before relying on it!!!;)
 

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There should be a TDC reference mark on the flywheel but it's not visible with the transmission attached to the engine. And it doesn't line up with any fixed mark either.
On some cars (possibly only the 124 Saloon/Sedan fitted with the OHV engines?) fitted with the old 4 speed transmission, it was visible when the crank was in the bdc position with the dust cover/shield under the flywheel removed - the 4 speed trans. bellhousing was cut away diagonally at the bottom, allowing part of the flywheel and clutch cover to be seen. The 5 speed trans. covers the entire flywheel, so the mark is not visible.
Some say this mark is a balancing mark. Some say it's just there to ensure the flywheel is refitted correctly (it'll fit on in either of 2 ways), i.e. the mark should be at the top with pistons 1 & 4 at top dead centre. This mark takes the form of a drilled dimple (it may or may not be high-lighted in white paint) located between the clutch cover and the ring gear.

As regards finding TDC is marks/pointer have been moved - various ways
1) use a tdc timing tool e,g, https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/top-dead-centre-tdc-timing-tool.html

There are also versions that incorporate a graduated plunger or indeed, for better accuracy, a DTI (dial test indicator) as others have already suggested.
The problem is the plug holes on the TC engine are not vertical so... unless you want to fabricate a plug hole adaptor with an angled hole to hold the DTI or plunger vertically, such measuring devices may not work so well. (ymmv)

2) If you have a vernier or digital calipers, you should find (on the one's I've seen anyway) that as you expand the jaws to take a reading, there a tail that extends from the other end of the calipers - this is used for depth measurement of holes etc. I've used this to measure piston travel quite successfully. And it saves the cost of a DTI plus adaptor....

3) I've seen other Mechanics use a screwdriver to find TDC, worked for them.

But as s130 has pointed out, there can be inaccuracies when trying to establish TDC by measuring piston travel. One possible way to achieve better accuracy is to note the no. of degrees of crank rotation when the piston stops rising, then note the no. of degrees when the crank starts to descend and pick the midpoint as being TDC. s130 has also suggested a more accurate way would be by setting all pistons at the same height (you only have to compare no. 1 & 2 (3 & 4 will be at the same height, unless....), then turn the crank counter-clockwise by 90* (assuming you had started with no.1 piston at approx. TDC and had turned the crank clockwise to bring no.1 down to mid level in the cylinder.

My advice would be to not get too worked up about accuracy - 'near-enough will probably be good enough' (as we say over here). I remember often having to advance or retard the inlet or sometimes the exhaust cam sprocket by one, sometimes 2 teeth to get the engine to run smoothly (especially the Lancia Twin Cams) and nothing bad happened. On a standard production engine, running std. cams and std. compression ratio, you're unlikely to run into any problem. However, the golden rule is to always turn the engine over several times gently and slowly by hand after fitting a new belt or playing with valve timing before hitting the starter.

But, one word of caution to OP, as far as I was aware, ALL the Fiat twin cam engines are interference engines i.e. get the valve timing wrong by more than a tooth or 2 (as mentioned above) and pistons can collide with valves and cause major damage. I'd suggest OP ask the Mechanic he consulted to disclose where he found written info (hearsay doesn't count) that the 2 litre Fiat engine was non-interference. Or perhaps the 2 litre engine used in Fiats for the U.S. market uses such a low compression ratio compared to all other markets, that it was rendered non-interference? (I've only limited experience of the 2 litre engines).
OK SO. The mechanic has taken apart multiple generation 124 engines and that is what he bases this off of. Anyways, one quick radiator delete later and I can see crankshaft pulley so much better. I see this knob that looks like it about lines up with where to timing fork once was. I’m going to align it, put the belt on, and try and crank it. Here’s a photo.
IMG_0494.jpeg
 
Why don't you try what I suggested, the scribed mark on the pulley with the vertical mark on the engine block as that manual. I think you will find that is the TDC mark.
It probably compares with your other marks but should be more accurate, the one in fig 1.35 for the OHV engines in my second photo.:)
 
Why don't you try what I suggested, the scribed mark on the pulley with the vertical mark on the engine block as that manual. I think you will find that is the TDC mark.
It probably compares with your other marks but should be more accurate, the one in fig 1.35 for the OHV engines in my second photo.:)
Somehow I totally missed your comment! I am going to try that right now
 
@bugsymike that diagram was like 70% helpful😂 I found the vertical mark(I think) but now I realized the pulley has two timing notches which I will be referring to as the outer and inner notch. Neither timing notch aligns with the crankshaft gear timing notch…. The inner and outer timing notches don’t even align with eachother. I tried lining up the crank gear with the vertical notch but then the pulley notches didn’t align with where they should be. There has to be something obvious I’m missing. Pictures included. The first photo- vertical notch, crank gear notch and possible alignment notch are highlighted. Second photo(reverse side of the crank pulley) - outer timing notch, inner timing notch, and crank timing notch highlighted.
IMG_0494.jpeg
 

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That's a pain.
In general terms on most cars when the crankshaft woodruff key is vertical, engine is at TDC on No. 1 Cylinder. Can you draw a vertical line with a straight edge to top of engine and see if pistons at TDC at that point and also if that same mark aligns when pulley fitted aligns with your original bent timing TDC mark.
I know this sounds a bit vague, but in the absence of any more accurate method it may be all that is possible.
When at Motor Vehicle College around 1970 they would give us an engine with absolutely no timing marks for valves or ignition and no timing chain or gears attached and we had to get it running, which I could.
It was basically find TDC via the plug hole as carefully as possible, then on a four cylinder engine get the No.4 inlet and exhaust valves on the "rock", the point where one is about to go down and the other about to down, so both cam lobes at their highest points in effect, this meant that the corresponding cam lobes for No1 piston were on it's firing stroke, then connect the valve timing chain or gears , turn the engine over by hand to ensure all clear/no interference of valves with pistons. Next with piston No.1 coming up to it's firing stroke we would set the distributor with the points about to open roughly between 5 and 10 degrees before TDC and engine would run perfectly.
In your first photo where you have marked a yellow T shape on the engine casting, if that is aligned with the scribed mark on crankshaft/woodruff key slot I would say that would be TDC. Then if it is the correct crankshaft pulley and engaged with the woodruff key on shaft the timing marks for TDC on that pulley should align with the bent TDC marker if you are lucky and the reverse of that pulley has the keyway slot to engage with.;)
 
Hi all,

I was replacing my timing belt and the crank ended up not being in time (don't worry it's a 1980 2.0 so its freewheeling) and to my frustration, I realized that the PO had some how managed to bend the crankshaft timing marker out of place. I have contacted a few junkyards requesting the part, however I cannot find this part anywhere on parts sellers like midwest bayless, Autoricambi, or Vicks. Does anyone know where I might be able to pick one up, or is there an alternate way to time the crank? I know this is like my 3rd post in a week but I appreciate the help!

Thanks

Michael
Making a conclusion to this saga as I HATE when I follow a forum and it goes cold unexpectedly. I took off the cylinder 1 spark plug and used a screwdriver to feel TDC, and my hunch was correct. Lining up the notch with the vertical marker is TDC. The pulley marks are just for ign timing which will certainly be a headache having to derive them from math lol. Im pretty confident the engine is non interference but I am getting an endoscope to look at my valves. I will keep you all updated.
 
That's a pain.
In general terms on most cars when the crankshaft woodruff key is vertical, engine is at TDC on No. 1 Cylinder. Can you draw a vertical line with a straight edge to top of engine and see if pistons at TDC at that point and also if that same mark aligns when pulley fitted aligns with your original bent timing TDC mark.
I know this sounds a bit vague, but in the absence of any more accurate method it may be all that is possible.
When at Motor Vehicle College around 1970 they would give us an engine with absolutely no timing marks for valves or ignition and no timing chain or gears attached and we had to get it running, which I could.
It was basically find TDC via the plug hole as carefully as possible, then on a four cylinder engine get the No.4 inlet and exhaust valves on the "rock", the point where one is about to go down and the other about to down, so both cam lobes at their highest points in effect, this meant that the corresponding cam lobes for No1 piston were on it's firing stroke, then connect the valve timing chain or gears , turn the engine over by hand to ensure all clear/no interference of valves with pistons. Next with piston No.1 coming up to it's firing stroke we would set the distributor with the points about to open roughly between 5 and 10 degrees before TDC and engine would run perfectly.
In your first photo where you have marked a yellow T shape on the engine casting, if that is aligned with the scribed mark on crankshaft/woodruff key slot I would say that would be TDC. Then if it is the correct crankshaft pulley and engaged with the woodruff key on shaft the timing marks for TDC on that pulley should align with the bent TDC marker if you are lucky and the reverse of that pulley has the keyway slot to engage with.;)
Omg... I wish I'd seen this sooner. All credit goes to you sir; you are completely correct. That must be an impressive skill to have lol. How did you rotate the distributor without marks? Did you just fiddle with it until it ran well or what? I've read that there are some calculations you can can do to find out, but you seem pretty experienced in this haha.
 
Omg... I wish I'd seen this sooner. All credit goes to you sir; you are completely correct. That must be an impressive skill to have lol. How did you rotate the distributor without marks? Did you just fiddle with it until it ran well or what? I've read that there are some calculations you can can do to find out, but you seem pretty experienced in this haha.
I just had good lecturers at College, who were happy to impart their knowledge, unlike the teachers I had at Secondary School (one even said when looking at my exam results "I didn't realise you were good enough to get those, if I had I would have helped you like I helped your friend and you would have got top marks as well"!!!) 55 years later and I still remember him saying that.:mad:
Re the distributor timing, it was in the days of contact points and once you had worked out the firing order and had the rotor arm pointing at that spark plug terminal in the distributor cap, then all you had to do is get the engine roughly 5 degrees before TDC and move the distributor till points just about to open and engine would run quite well. Fine adjustment depending on fuels even today on older engines needs to be done on the road as in trial and error. Often if you set at original position engine will "pink/pre ignition" due to lower grade lead free fuels these days.
If you get a child's plastic protractor against the gear when at TDC and then mark the position of the timing marks relative to your pulley, then you should be able to adjust your damaged pointer to the correct position.
I once timed a Ford York diesel engine with inline injector pump just using a child's protractor, a whistle in the heater plug hole to find TDC and a short bit of clear pipe to use to see "spill port timing" on an engine I fitted in a LandRover all with no marks and got 30 MPG with similar performance to the genuine Land Rover version which was only good for 25MPG, all with no timing marks.
I recall after totally rebuilding an engine for a new boss and topping up the radiator and fitting the bonnet/hood, him coming over and saying aren't you going to try and start it first before doing that? I looked surprised and said "No, I know it will start and of course it did.:)
By the way I would still expect the 2litre DOHC engine with "inclined valves" to be a interference/contact engine if valve timing wrong, so if you do fit a belt etc. strongly advise turning engine over by hand several times to ensure no contact , before trying to start it.:)
 
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@bugsymike that diagram was like 70% helpful😂 I found the vertical mark(I think) but now I realized the pulley has two timing notches which I will be referring to as the outer and inner notch. Neither timing notch aligns with the crankshaft gear timing notch…. The inner and outer timing notches don’t even align with eachother. I tried lining up the crank gear with the vertical notch but then the pulley notches didn’t align with where they should be. There has to be something obvious I’m missing. Pictures included. The first photo- vertical notch, crank gear notch and possible alignment notch are highlighted. Second photo(reverse side of the crank pulley) - outer timing notch, inner timing notch, and crank timing notch highlighted. View attachment 442667

Whenever I'm trying to see something clearly, I find it helpful to clean what I'm trying to see ;) e.g.

IMG_0494.jpeg


I can see an angled alignment mark (which I've highlighted in red) on the aluminum cover behind the crank cog that seems to me to align with both the crank cog and possibly the auxiliary drive cog? (I'm aware that on the older Fiat T/C engines this auxiliary drive cog had to be set at 34* (approx 4 teeth) clockwise from the vertical position, but I'm not very familiar with the 2 litre engine).

Now as regards ignition timing marks, I reckon that if the bent pointer bracket were to be straightened (preferably in a vise, not on the engine), the 3 points might align with the notch (highlighted in red) on the inner ring of your crank pulley (reverse side shown in your 2nd pic). Maybe try it and see?
I wonder how this pointer bracket became bent - maybe someone bent it out of the way to change a drive belt?
IMG_0498.jpeg


If this notch does align with the pointer bracket then the 3 points likely indicate 10*btdc, 5*btdc and TDC (going from left to right), so can be used for ignition timing checks as well as valve timing checks. Be aware that rotating the auxiliary drive cog/belt pulley also rotates the distributor drive shaft thereby changing the ignition timing, so this will have to be checked/reset before trying to start the engine. (might not have been correct originally)

P.S. I also have vague memories that when all the valve timing marks are aligned, the distributor rotor should actually point at no 4 cyl. on the distributor cap, not at no.1 cyl. as is usual. But I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).
 
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