Technical Fiat ducato 2.8jtd 2006 engine 8140.43s

[Quadman200]

Not necessarily related to this issue, but I am incredible surprised that no damage was reported to the conrods and pistons, as I have had several of those Sofim 8140. series engines apart and everyone that had failed due to cambelt issues had also bent the conrod on at least one cylinder.

The garage told me that there was a witness marks in the top of the pistons from the valves but insisted that they had check the height of the pistons and they were all level.
Have you any specification for the height of the pistons from the head which could be checked with a Dti.
My concern now is the pistons have been hit again?

 

[bugsymike]

The tensioner clamping bolt could have broken, I somthing like that has been discussed on forum.
Yes 152 teeth, I have counted for a previous query, and still have old one marked off every ten teeth. Two extra teeth to complete circumference.

I know on the Iveco Daily version of that engine there was two different tensioner roller diameters, which again would affect belt length, although I always bought it as a kit from memory.
The water pump on those held the tensioner spring piston which could seize, I can't remember if that is part of the engine mount also on the Ducato versions. The other thing if belt tension has caused the problem is when outer cover is secured with stepped spacers fitted wrong on tensioner stud it can also cause failure.

 

[Quadman200]

I know on the Iveco Daily version of that engine there was two different tensioner roller diameters, which again would affect belt length, although I always bought it as a kit from memory.
The water pump on those held the tensioner spring piston which could seize, I can't remember if that is part of the engine mount also on the Ducato versions. The other thing if belt tension has caused the problem is when outer cover is secured with stepped spacers fitted wrong on tensioner stud it can also cause failure.

I have been told this before about the spacers and I sent the detailed pictures to the garage and the part numbers so they could be replaced. The other point I made was that there should be a thin spacer on the back of the crank pulley and I gave them the part number but they said that wouldn’t matter if this was not on there?

I have the correct spacers bottom cover and the thin spacer direct from Fiat I am not sure what there problem is they didn’t seem to want to let me in the work shop

 

[bugsymike]

The garage told me that there was a witness marks in the top of the pistons from the valves but insisted that they had check the height of the pistons and they were all level.
Have you any specification for the height of the pistons from the head which could be checked with a Dti.
My concern now is the pistons have been hit again?

I don't have any specific measurements, but if two corresponding pistons are measured and found different heights, even by that couple of millimetre it shows damage and will alter compression readings etc on that cylinder so the engine unlikely to run sweet and balanced.
When removed and a good and suspect conrod where side by side on a flat surface plate, by pushing a gudgeon pin through one it would align with the other.
The magnetic dial gauge should show any discrepancies between piston heights.

 

[Quadman200]

I don't have any specific measurements, but if two corresponding pistons are measured and found different heights, even by that couple of millimetre it shows damage and will alter compression readings etc on that cylinder so the engine unlikely to run sweet and balanced.
When removed and a good and suspect conrod where side by side on a flat surface plate, by pushing a gudgeon pin through one it would align with the other.
The magnetic dial gauge should show any discrepancies between piston heights.

I wonder if this could be part of the problem fully understand that the engine would be out of balance if Conrod was bent

 

[Quadman200]

I don't have any specific measurements, but if two corresponding pistons are measured and found different heights, even by that couple of millimetre it shows damage and will alter compression readings etc on that cylinder so the engine unlikely to run sweet and balanced.
When removed and a good and suspect conrod where side by side on a flat surface plate, by pushing a gudgeon pin through one it would align with the other.
The magnetic dial gauge should show any discrepancies between piston heights.

Correct me if I am wrong but do two pistons come up together on this engine

 

[bugsymike]

I have been told this before about the spacers and I sent the detailed pictures to the garage and the part numbers so they could be replaced. The other point I made was that there should be a thin spacer on the back of the crank pulley and I gave them the part number but they said that wouldn’t matter if this was not on there?

I have the correct spacers bottom cover and the thin spacer direct from Fiat I am not sure what there problem is they didn’t seem to want to let me in the work shop

Does sound like the are trying to cover up faulty workmanship. These engines go on for many thousands of miles just with regular oil changes, I had one with around 257k miles and that is low compared with some reports.
Re the spacer if it is meant to be there and not then the belt could be out of line and rub on it's edge causing a subsequent failure.

 

[bugsymike]

Correct me if I am wrong but do two pistons come up together on this engine

That's right, with head off as with most four cylinder engines, you will see two pistons up and two down. So number one and number four piston may be up when numbers two and three are down.
When checking suspect ones , as in where a valve has hit the piston the matching one that is up at the same time may be only different by a couple of mm so has to be measured accurately.

 

[Quadman200]

Does sound like the are trying to cover up faulty workmanship. These engines go on for many thousands of miles just with regular oil changes, I had one with around 257k miles and that is low compared with some reports.
Re the spacer if it is meant to be there and not then the belt could be out of line and rub on it's edge causing a subsequent failure.

I agree I haven’t measured the thickness as it is still in sealed bag looks about 0.5mm
I told the manager when we unloaded of the wagon these engines are really robust don’t understand the failure.

 

[Quadman200]

That's right, with head off as with most four cylinder engines, you will see two pistons up and two down. So number one and number four piston may be up when numbers two and three are down.
When checking suspect ones , as in where a valve has hit the piston the matching one that is up at the same time may be only different by a couple of mm so has to be measured accurately.

Yes fully understand would be nice to have a nominal measurement dimension from the head

 

[bugsymike]

Yes fully understand would be nice to have a nominal measurement dimension from the head

It can be affected by different makes of piston or if block has been machined at any time, so less a critical measurement as such , more any difference between pistons.

 

[Quadman200]

Does sound like the are trying to cover up faulty workmanship. These engines go on for many thousands of miles just with regular oil changes, I had one with around 257k miles and that is low compared with some reports.
Re the spacer if it is meant to be there and not then the belt could be out of line and rub on it's edge causing a subsequent failure.

It can be affected by different makes of piston or if block has been machined at any time, so less a critical measurement as such , more any difference between pistons.

Ok I understand a direct comparison between each of the pistons

 

[bugsymike]

Ok I understand a direct comparison between each of the pistons

Yes any matching pair as in the two up or the two down, it doesn't matter where they are up or down, but easier if up. Does this help?

 

[Quadman200]

Yes any matching pair as in the two up or the two down, it doesn't matter where they are up or down, but easier if up. Does this help?
View attachment 444941

Yes thank you for all your help I appreciate the time taken to reply. I can get ready for all the arguments with the garage.

 

[Communicator]

I have been told this before about the spacers and I sent the detailed pictures to the garage and the part numbers so they could be replaced. The other point I made was that there should be a thin spacer on the back of the crank pulley and I gave them the part number but they said that wouldn’t matter if this was not on there?

I have the correct spacers bottom cover and the thin spacer direct from Fiat I am not sure what there problem is they didn’t seem to want to let me in the work shop

If there was a spacer behind the crankshaft pulley on mine, then either I have forgotten about, or it was not replaced on first belt change at local garage.

Limited access to the workshop could be due to insurance conditions.

 

[bugsymike]

Limited access to the workshop could be due to insurance conditions.

They could argue that point, but at the end of the day I would want to see the damaged parts and know the reason why. It is easy to try and flannel a customer.
I was always happy to explain to my customers male or female exactly why they needed the work done, many stayed with me for just that reason, having been to big companies where they only got to see a receptionist who would just present them with a bill, but couldn't say why a job was carried out.
If this problem was being dealt with by AA legal department for example, the garage would be hard put to deny access to their trained inspector.
It does seem like the OP has had pretty poor service to still be off the road after all this time.

 

[Quadman200]

Hi can anyone confirm what the diameter is for the idlers on 8140.43s 2.8jtd
what dia the idler 67mm ?
What dia is the tensioner 64mm?
Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Hi can anyone confirm what the diameter is for the idlers on 8140.43s 2.8jtd
what dia the idler 67mm ?
What dia is the tensioner 64mm?
Thanks

Idler or Guide roller 67mm, Tension roller 64mm, as you have sugested.

 

[Quadman200]

Thank you very much appreciated

 

[Quadman200]

Just phoned to get an update on the Motorhome and it’s not good news the head has failed with one of the buckets picking up smashing and dropping the valve that explains the clattering and banging I heard and no warning. They told me the cambelt was still intact. This will be the second time the valves have hit the pistons so I have told them I expect the engine to be replaced. The head was rebuilt by one of there suppliers as part of the last repair. More time without the Motorhome.