Technical Alternate ignition condenser

[RobertM]

Does anyone know an alternative ignition condenser that can be found in the United States? My spare condenser’s wire fell off after being installed for like 20 miles and my backup plan of grabbing one for a 1970 corvette because it was roughly the same size and shape unfortunately did not work. Does anyone know of a different cars condenser that I can get working?

 

[bugsymike]

Does anyone know an alternative ignition condenser that can be found in the United States? My spare condenser’s wire fell off after being installed for like 20 miles and my backup plan of grabbing one for a 1970 corvette because it was roughly the same size and shape unfortunately did not work. Does anyone know of a different cars condenser that I can get working?

Is it only the shape and size to fit your distributor that is the problem?
I don't know if you are aware, but once the old one is safely disconnected you can fit a new one of similar capacity on the distributor wire coming from the ignition coil and it will work the same, at least long enough for you to obtain the correct one.
In the late 1960s I often went out on a breakdown for the garage I was working at to a vehicle with a failed condenser which had caused pitting and failure of the contact points, I would clean the points and regap them, then often in those days there was a radio suppressor fitted on the SW (switch side/live) side of the coil, I would move it's wire to the CB (contact breaker) side of the coil to act like a condenser and car would start and run fine until new parts were sourced.
If you have an alternator fitted I expect your vehicle is negative earth at the battery, the reason I say this is some ignition coils are marked + and - (positive and negative rather than sw and cb)
As a further example I have recently been helping a friend with his collection of CycleMaster engines (they fit inside of the back wheel of a pedal bicycle) as these are around 75 years old the condensors often need replacing and the fix is to drill out the old guts of the condenser and glue a new capacitor/condenser of similar MFDs /Spec. inside the old one and they work perfectly.
Let us know if this works , to help others.

 

[RobertM]

Is it only the shape and size to fit your distributor that is the problem?
I don't know if you are aware, but once the old one is safely disconnected you can fit a new one of similar capacity on the distributor wire coming from the ignition coil and it will work the same, at least long enough for you to obtain the correct one.
In the late 1960s I often went out on a breakdown for the garage I was working at to a vehicle with a failed condenser which had caused pitting and failure of the contact points, I would clean the points and regap them, then often in those days there was a radio suppressor fitted on the SW (switch side/live) side of the coil, I would move it's wire to the CB (contact breaker) side of the coil to act like a condenser and car would start and run fine until new parts were sourced.
If you have an alternator fitted I expect your vehicle is negative earth at the battery, the reason I say this is some ignition coils are marked + and - (positive and negative rather than sw and cb)
As a further example I have recently been helping a friend with his collection of CycleMaster engines (they fit inside of the back wheel of a pedal bicycle) as these are around 75 years old the condensors often need replacing and the fix is to drill out the old guts of the condenser and glue a new capacitor/condenser of similar MFDs /Spec. inside the old one and they work perfectly.
Let us know if this works , to help others.

That’s what I thought but the one that I got for the corvette actually fits in place nicely and I got everything on and it still would not run. I’m thinking maybe I just got a bad condenser out of the box or I’m having some other issue… I’m going to buy a couple different condensers this morning and see if I can get it running.

 

[jackwhoo]

Start at the beginning with fault finding.

Is there power at the coil?
Is the lead from coil to distributor intact?
With the points open is the lead coil to distributor short to ground?
Do the points open?
With points closed is the electrical continuity between the contacts?

Then move on to ht side

Etc etc

 

[RobertM]

Start at the beginning with fault finding.

Is there power at the coil?
Is the lead from coil to distributor intact?
With the points open is the lead coil to distributor short to ground?
Do the points open?
With points closed is the electrical continuity between the contacts?

Then move on to ht side

Etc etc

I have limited tools right now.

BUT, a new condenser makes it run better but still not great, I put new points in but I haven’t set the dwell correctly, about to get some feeler gauges to do that. The only other thing I can think of is that we pulled off the carb so the gasket might not be sealing quite right, we’re going to get some carb cleaner to spray around it to see if it changes the idle and then I’ll get some silicone to make a makeshift gasket if that’s the problem.

If none of this works I think we’re going to call a series of 6 tow trucks to get us the 600 miles that we need to go, it’s free with road side assistance but will take a lot of time.

We do have a spark coming across the points that’s consistent so I don’t think it’s the coil.

 

[jackwhoo]

I have limited tools right now.

BUT, a new condenser makes it run better but still not great, I put new points in but I haven’t set the dwell correctly, about to get some feeler gauges to do that. The only other thing I can think of is that we pulled off the carb so the gasket might not be sealing quite right, we’re going to get some carb cleaner to spray around it to see if it changes the idle and then I’ll get some silicone to make a makeshift gasket if that’s the problem.

If none of this works I think we’re going to call a series of 6 tow trucks to get us the 600 miles that we need to go, it’s free with road side assistance but will take a lot of time.

We do have a spark coming across the points that’s consistent so I don’t think it’s the coil.

Silicon sealant does not work well on carbs.

Spark across points does not rule out coil but does show you have power to coil and primary side of coil is not open circuit.

When points changed or adjusted it affects ignition timing..... some thing for the future for you.

 

[jackwhoo]

Using a green pan scourer or the like Clean the rotor arm brass contact where the carbon contact in the distributor cap touches , surprisingly tarnish can make a big difference.
If the rotor arm is breaking down the ht voltage can short through the rotor arm to the distributor rotor and hence not make it to the spark plugs.

 

[Goldnrust]

Any condenser from a 12v negative earth vehicle should work, as long as its physical dimensions allow you to fit it. As mentioned above, it can be mounted by the coil if needs be for space.

Sadly, condensers that are bad out of the box are far from unheard off, so would be worth trying with another Corvette one if they are cheap and easy to get hold of before you write the idea off.

Definitely worth gapping the points accurately, as it makes a big difference to spark quality.

 

[RobertM]

So after some more tinkering. The carb was all fine, I threw new plugs in again, a new condenser, and made sure the points had the correct gap. Everything was working great. We got in the car and drove about 160 miles, then we stopped for fuel, got back onto the road and everything went smoothly but as soon as we accelerated to 55mph the car started misfiring again. I’ve swapped the plugs with another new set, put another condenser on, and checked all the wires but it’s still not running right. It could possibly be the timing? I’ve called a tow truck to get us another 100 miles down the road, and I’ll poke around the points while I wait for the next truck after that. (We have another 560 miles to cover today) we were supposed to be further yesterday but these issues early on slowed our progress.

 

[RobertM]

I also want to add this car runs very poorly the first couple second after filling it up with fuel generally. So I’m wondering if I have an underlying carb issue.

 

[bugsymike]

I also want to add this car runs very poorly the first couple second after filling it up with fuel generally. So I’m wondering if I have an underlying carb issue.

It's not disturbing some water or rust in your fuel tank is it?

 

[jackwhoo]

There is a fine strainer/filter on the bottom of the fuel pick up pipe inside the fuel tank.

Fuel pump ?

I have a friend who had a vw with mechanical fuel pump that would cope for 60 miles then need a rest for an hour then work for anther 60 miles. That took some identifying as the fault! I didn't cut the pump open but suspect the diaphragm was semi porous/tiny hole.

 

[jackwhoo]

Next time it is running badly pull the coil it lead from the distributor cap. Hold lead near metal and crank engine you should get a spark that can jump 1/4 inch or more . Actually try it when engine is running ok then you will have a bench mark what to expect.
If spark won't jump 1/4 inch there is ignition problem.

Rotor arm?? Have you tried a spare ? Have you cleaned contact point?

Have you checked carbon contact in distributor cap is still there?

 

[jackwhoo]

Some people have had problem with ignition coils getting too hot.

Does you coil become too hot to touch ?

 

[bugsymike]

Some people have had problem with ignition coils getting too hot.

Does you coil become too hot to touch ?

I have had that in the past where polarity has been changed, though not sure exactly why.

 

[Toshi 975]

On my last 500L the previous owner had fitted a new coil. When I got the car the engine kept on cutting out after a short, 10 to 20 minutes, drive. It drove me absolutely crazy as it would restart after about 10 minutes and repeat the process. I tried changing everything on the fuel and ignition system over a few months and final suspected overheating coil. To prove this theory I rigged the car up with two coils and as soon as the engine died I switched coil and the engine would start immediately. I think the only thing that I did not try was a ballast resistor but I fitted a 123 ignition which stopped the problem for some reason.
Later on I burned out two new twin spark coils on a 650 engine as I had not fitted a ballast resistor.

 

[RobertM]

So an update for everyone, I think my issue is the carb. I got very frustrated with it last night, because it was 2am and I was having difficulty getting a tow so I took it out onto the highway and let it misfire for about a mile then all of a sudden it cleared up and I did 300 miles with no issues (other than an exhaust bolt backing out right before I got to my destination) I didn't even shut the car off for fuel stops and it never had any fuel issues.

I'm in Florida now for a week so I've ordered a bunch of parts to take care of the issues that I've been having including a brand new carb.

 

[the hobbler]

I also want to add this car runs very poorly the first couple second after filling it up with fuel generally. So I’m wondering if I have an underlying carb issue.

A lot of modern condensers do not like heat, to the point that they wilt (i.e. DIE!) quite quickly. The "problem" with the 500/126 engine is that the distributor is right in the path of the hot (sometimes, very) "cooling" air coming from the engine, a situation almost unique to the little Fiat. When you do get back to base, it might be worthwhile trying to get hold of a condenser from iether "SWIFTUNE" or "SHACKTUNE". I concede that both of these are UK companies, so if you need help getting one of their condensers contact me direct ( [email protected] ) and I will help you get one. The beauty of these condensers is that they are made for competition cars where the rules stipulate that the ORIGINAL ignition system must be retained (GT40s still run on 'points' ignition) and therefore have long 'power'AND 'earth' leads, which allows them to be mounted remotely from the distributor and in a cooler spot in the engine bay. On the 500s, this means that the condemser can be mounted up by the coil, well away from the hot 'cooling'air coming from the engine.

 

[RobertM]

A lot of modern condensers do not like heat, to the point that they wilt (i.e. DIE!) quite quickly. The "problem" with the 500/126 engine is that the distributor is right in the path of the hot (sometimes, very) "cooling" air coming from the engine, a situation almost unique to the little Fiat. When you do get back to base, it might be worthwhile trying to get hold of a condenser from iether "SWIFTUNE" or "SHACKTUNE". I concede that both of these are UK companies, so if you need help getting one of their condensers contact me direct ( [email protected] ) and I will help you get one. The beauty of these condensers is that they are made for competition cars where the rules stipulate that the ORIGINAL ignition system must be retained (GT40s still run on 'points' ignition) and therefore have long 'power'AND 'earth' leads, which allows them to be mounted remotely from the distributor and in a cooler spot in the engine bay. On the 500s, this means that the condemser can be mounted up by the coil, well away from the hot 'cooling'air coming from the engine.

I would do that but our current plan right now is to do some suspension modifications, a front disc conversion and one of the d'angelo engines that comes with the electronic ignitions. My goal for the car is to capture the ethos of the old 695 essess, minus the wide fender flares.